Uncut Interviews David Bowie & Tony Visconti On Berlin

Record Collector

March 2001

UNCUT: Many reasons have been suggested for moving to Berlin: the local art and music scene, to escape superstardom, for spiritual and physical detox – plus the creative stimulation of being in an isolated, edgy, divided city. Are these theories accurate? Can you remember why the city appealed?

db: Life in LA had left me with an overwhelming sense of foreboding. I had approached the brink of drug induced calamity one too many times and it was essential to take some kind of positive action. For many years Berlin had appealed to me as a sort of sanctuary like situation. It was one of the few cities where I could move around in virtual anonymity. I was going broke; it was cheap to live. For some reason, Berliners just didn’t care. Well, not about an English rock singer anyway.

….Since my teenage years I had obsessed on the angst ridden, emotional work of the expressionists, both artists and film makers, and Berlin had been their spiritual home. This was the nub of Die Brucke movement, Max Rheinhardt, Brecht and where Metropolis and Caligari had originated. It was an art form that mirrored life not by event but by mood. This was where I felt my work was going. My attention had been swung back to Europe with the release of Kraftwerk’s Autobahn in 1974. The preponderance of electronic instruments convinced me that this was an area that I had to investigate a little further.

….Much has been made of Kraftwerks influence on our Berlin albums. Most of it lazy analyses I believe. Kraftwerks approach to music had in itself little place in my scheme. Theirs was a controlled, robotic, extremely measured series of compositions, almost a parody of minimalism. One had the feeling that Florian and Ralph were completely in charge of their environment, and that their compositions were well prepared and honed before entering the studio. My work tended to expressionist mood pieces, the protagonist (myself) abandoning himself to the ‘zeitgeist’ (a popular word at the time), with little or no control over his life. The music was spontaneous for the most part and created in the studio.

….In substance too, we were poles apart. K.’s percussion sound was produced electronically, rigid in tempo, unmoving. Ours was the mangled treatment of a powerfully emotive drummer, Dennis Davis. The tempo not only ‘moved’ but also was expressed in more than ‘human’ fashion. K. supported that unyielding machinelike beat with all synthetic sound generating sources. We used an R&B band. Since ‘Station To Station’ the hybridization of R&B and electronics had been a goal of mine. Indeed according to a 70’s interview with Brian Eno, this is what had drawn him to working with me. (QUOTE).

….One other lazy observation I would like to point up, btw, is the assumption that ‘Station To Station’ was homage to K’s ‘Trans-Europe Express’. In reality ‘S to S’ preceded ‘Trans’ by quite some time, 76 and 77 respectively.

….Btw, the title drives from the Stations of the Cross and not the railway system.

….What I WAS passionate about in relation to K. was their singular determination to stand apart from stereotypical American chord sequences and their wholehearted embrace of a European sensibility displayed through their music. This was their very important influence on me.

….Interesting sidebar. My original top of my wish list for guitar player on LOW was Michael Dinger, from Neu. Neu being passionate, even diametrically opposite to K.

….I phoned Dinger from France in the first few days of recording but in the most polite and diplomatic fashion he said ‘No’

Some biographers speculate the Berlin era was an instinctive reaction to the mid-Seventies ethos of punk rock – dressed down, blunt, serious, doom-laden, emotionally raw. A plausible theory?

Whether it was my befuddled brain or because of the lack of impact of the English variety of punk in the US, the whole movement was virtually over by the time it lodged itself in my awareness. Completely passed me by. The few punk bands that I saw in Berlin struck me as being sort of post 1969 Iggy and it seemed like he’d already done that. Though I do regret not being around for the whole Pistols Circus as that kind of entertainment would have done more for my depressed disposition than just about anything else that I could think of.

….Of course, I had met them fairly early on when I was touring with Iggy, at least Johnny and Sid. John was obviously quite in awe of Jim but on the occasion of meeting Sid, Sid was near catatonic and I felt very bad for him. He was so young and in such need of help..

….As far as the music goes, Low and its siblings were a direct follow-on from the title track ‘Station’. It’s often struck me that there will usually be one track on any given album of mine, which will be a fair indicator of the intent of the following album.

Was there ever a serious plan to record with Kraftwerk, as some biographers claim?

db: No, not at any time. We met a few times socially but that was as far as it went.

Did you cruise the autobahns listening to ‘Autobahn’ non-stop, as Ralf Hutter once insisted?

db: Certainly on the streets of LA in 1975, yes. But by Berlin Autobahn was rather last years news. So, in short , no..

Were there any meetings or planned collaborations with other ‘Krautrock’ bands like Cluster, Neu! or Tangerine Dream?

db: Not at all. I knew Edgar Froesse and his wife socially but I never met the others as I had no real inclination to go to Dusseldorf as I was very single minded about what I needed to do in the studio in Berlin.

db: I took it upon myself to introduce Eno to the Dusseldorf sound with which he was very taken, Connie Plank et al ( also to Devo btw who in turn had been introduced to me by Iggy) and Brian eventually made it up there to record with some of them.

LOW Generally perceived as David at his most emotionally honest, but most unhappy. Looking back, is this interpretation accurate?

db: Yes, it was a dangerous period for me. I was at the end of my tether physically and emotionally and had serious doubts about my sanity. But this was in France. Overall, I get a sense of real optimism through the veils of despair from Low. I can hear myself really struggling to get well.

….Berlin was the first time in years that I had felt a joy of life and a great feeling of release and healing. It’s a city eight times bigger than Paris remember and so easy to ‘get lost’ in and to ‘find’ oneself too..

Is it true that Chateau d’Herouville was haunted by the ghosts of Chopin and George Sand, and David refused to sleep in the master bedroom because it was spooked? Did this affect the record’s mood?
db: It was a spooky place. I did refuse one bedroom, as it felt impossibly cold in certain areas of it. To my knowledge though, the place itself had no bearing on the form or tonality of the work. The studio itself was a joy, ramshackle and comfy feeling. I liked the room a lot.

There are rumours that Robert Fripp was involved, but uncredited. Was he?

db: No.

Rumour also has it that an alternative version exists with different lyrics – is this true, and if so, why?

db: If there had been different lyrics to anything, then I’m sure they would have been working lyrics or ‘placement’ words to identify a melody that I wanted to use. I do remember singing joke words to some of the melodies but I frequently do that when I’m getting a feel for where I want it to go. Tony would have wiped or recorded over them when I put down final vocals. I’m not aware of any existing alternative versions.

The couplet in ‘Breaking Glass which begins “don’t look at the carpet” – is this a reference to drawing Kabbalistic symbols on the floor in LA?

db: Well, it is a contrived image, yes. It refers to both the cabbalistic drawings of the tree of life and the conjuring of spirits

Is it true that ‘Weeping Wall’, ‘Subterraneans’ and ‘Some Are’ were left over from David’s proposed soundtrack to The Man Who Fell To Earth?

db: The only hold over from the proposed soundtrack that I actually used was the reverse bass part in Subterraneans. Everything else was written for LOW.

HEROES Widely seen as a more upbeat and positive album than ‘Low’. Is this accurate?

db: It’s louder and harder and played with more energy in a way. But lyrically it seems far more psychotic. By now I was living full time in Berlin so my own mood was good. Buoyant even. But those lyrics come from a nook in the unconscious. Still a lot of house cleaning going on I feel.

The album was mostly written in the studio and completed in very quick takes. Correct? Was there an intent behind this method?

db: A couple were very definitely first and only takes. I think the rest were probably run at two or more times until the feel was right. With such great musicians the notes were never in doubt so we looked at ‘feel’ as being the priority.

….Most of my vocals were first takes, some written as I sang. Most famously ‘Joe the Lion’ I suppose. I would put the headphones on, stand at the mike, listen to a verse, jot down some key words that came into mind then take. Then I would repeat the same process for the next section etc. It was something that I learnt from working with Iggy and I thought a very effective way of breaking normality in the lyric.

It is often said that the album sleeve was an allusion to Gramatte’s self-portrait, or to Heckel’s Roquairol – is either of these correct? And did the Heckel painting also inspire Iggy’s ‘The Idiot’ cover?

db: Heckel’s ‘Roquairol’ and also his print from 1910 or thereabouts called ‘Young Man.’s was a major influence on me as a painter. I personally couldn’t stand Gramatte. He was wishy washy imo. I have seen the Grammatte in question but no, it was Heckel.

Is there a creative connection between the Brucke school of painting and this album?

db: Explained elsewhere I hope.

Eno says he and David spent most of the sessions doing Peter Cook and Dudley Moore voices, the recording was a real laugh, and that David was virtually living on one raw egg a day. True?

db: We certainly had our share of schoolboy giggling fits. I think that ‘most of the sessions’ is a little bit of an exaggeration. However, Brian and I did have Pete and Dud done pretty pat. Long dialogues about John Cage performing on a ‘prepared layer’ at the Bricklayers Arms on the Old Kent Road and such like. Quite silly.

….I was eating extremely well as my drug intake was practically zero. I would eat a couple of raw eggs to start the day or finish it, with pretty big meals in between. Lots of meat and veg, thanks mum. Brian would start his day with a cup full of boiling water into which he would cut huge lumps of garlic. He was no fun to do backing vocals with on the same mike.

Conflicting stories: “Heroes” was inspired by (a) Two lovers David observed standing by the Berlin Wall, (b) Tony Visconti and Antonia Maass kissing by the Wall, (c) Otto Mueller’s painting ‘Lovers Between Garden Walls’ (d) all of the above? (e) None of these.

db: I’d prefer Tony to answer this.

Conflicting stories: ‘Blackout’ is a reference to David collapsing in Berlin, or to the New York City power cut of 1977 – both of these? Neither?

db: It did indeed refer to power cuts. I can’t in all honesty say that it was the NY one, though it is entirely likely that that image locked itself in my head. (you would have to check the date of both the recording and the NY blackout to make an intelligent assumption.)

‘V2 Schneider’ – a tribute to Florian?

db: Of course.

LODGER An album which really divides Bowie fans – it is either devout love or total indifference. Can you understand both reactions?

db: I think Tony and I would both agree that we didn’t take enough care mixing. This had a lot to do with my being distracted by personal events in my life and I think Tony lost heart a little because it never came together as easily as both Low and Heroes had. I would still maintain though that there are a number of really important ideas on Lodger. If I had more e time I would explore them for you·but·you can probably pick them out as easily.

Moving away from pure electronic sounds – was this a deliberate strategy to stay ahead of the synthesizercopycat bands who were busy aping ‘Low’ and “Heroes”?

db: I think it’s the lack of instrumentals that give you the impression that our process was different. It really wasn’t though. It was a lot more mischievous though. Brian and I did play a number of ‘art pranks’ on the band. They really didn’t go down too well though. Especially with Carlos who tends to be quite ‘grand’.

Was the backwards tape of ‘All The Young Dudes’ for ‘Move On’ originally an accident? And does this song have any connection to the unfinished Iggy collaboration ‘Moving On’?

db: Not really an accident but I did stumble upon it. I had put one of my reel to reel tapes on backwards by mistake and really quite liked the melody it created. So I played quite a few more in this fashion and chose five or six that were really quite compelling. Dudes was the only one to make the album, as I didn’t want to abandon the ‘normal’ writing I was doing completely. But it was a worthwhile exercise in my mind. It has the same title as the song I wrote for Iggy. But as the one for Jim was a working title, I passed it onto the Lodger song.

The final refrain in ‘Red Money’ – “project cancelled”. Is this significant? A curtain being drawn on the Eno triptych?

db: Not at all. Mere whimsy.

What is ‘cricket menace’?

db: Little crickety sounds that Brian produced from a combination of my drum machine ( I would and still do, use one to write with when I’m on my own) and his ‘briefcase’ synth. You can hear them on African Nightflight

Moving to New York – had Berlin served its purpose? Was New York chosen for musical reasons?

db: I had not intended to leave Berlin, I just drifted away. Maybe I was getting better. It was an irreplaceable, unmissable experience and probably the happiest time in my life up until that point. Coco, Jim and I had so many great times. But I just can’t express the feeling of freedom I felt there. Some days the three of us would jump into the car and drive like crazy through East Germany and head down to the Black Forest, stopping off at any small village that caught our eye. Just go for days at a time. Or we’d take long all afternoon lunches at the Wannsee on winter days. The place had a glass roof and was surrounded by trees and still exuded an atmosphere of the long gone Berlin of the twenties. At night we’d hang with the intellectuals and beats at the Exile restaurant in Kreutzberg. In the back they had this smoky room with a billiard table and it was sort of like another living room except the company was always changing.

….Sometimes we’d go shopping at Ka De We, the giant department store in the Centre of West Berlin, which had the hugest food counters anyone could imagine with displays that are only imaginable in a country which either must have been seriously deprived of food at one time or where the populace just plain likes to eat alot. We’d stock up occasionally on what felt like luxuries at the time like chocolates or a small tin of caviar. One day, while we were out, Jim had come in and ate everything in the fridge we had spent all morning shopping for. It was one of the few times that Co and I were truly mad at him. I could write a lot more on all this·but.

….I had not intended to leave Berlin, I just drifted away. Maybe I was getting better. Jim decided to stay on a while longer as he had pretty much hitched up with a girl he’s met there and had by now gotten his own apartment, next door to ours.. Then Elephant Man came up, which caused me to be in the US for a considerable spell. Then Berlin was ·over.

MISCELLANEOUS David and Iggy apparently met Giorgio Moroder during sessions for ‘The Idiot’. Was there ever a plan to work with him on that record, or ‘Low’ or “Heroes”?

db: No.

Iggy claims ‘Lust For Life’ was written by David in front of the TV in Berlin, on a ukelele, with a rhythm copied from the tapping Morse Code beat of the Forces Network theme. Is this the case?

db: Absolutely.

A ‘Stage’ tour film was shot by David Hemmings at Earl’s Court. Why was it never released?

db: I simply didn’t like the way it had been shot. Now, of course, it looks pretty good and I would suspect that it would make it out some time in the future.

The Berlin albums are now widely seen as foundation stones of post-punk/ambient/electronica/world music. Does this surprise you?

db: No.

Were you aware of their importance when you were making them?

db:Yes, yes, yes,

For whatever reason, for whatever confluence of circumstances, Tony, Brian and I created a powerful, anguished, sometimes euphoric language of sounds. In some ways, sadly, they really captured unlike anything else in that time, a sense of yearning for a future that we all knew would never come to pass. It is some of the best work that the three of us have ever done. Nothing else sounded like those albums. Nothing else came close. If I never made another album it really wouldn’t matter now, my complete being is within those three. They are my DNA.

Some biographers speculate that David’s Berlin era was an instinctive reaction to the mid-Seventies ethos of punk rock – dressed down, blunt, serious, doom-laden, emotionally raw. Do you agree?

tv: I think David just liked living in Berlin. There was so much of it, in those days, that was fantastic, fantasy-like, that didn’t exist anywhere else in the world. The impending danger of the divided military zones, the bizarre night-life, the extremely traditional restaurants with aproned servers, reminders of Hitler’s not too distant presence, a recording studio 500 yds. From the Wall – you could’ve been on the set of The Prisoner.

LOW is Generally perceived as David at his most emotionally honest, but most unhappy. Looking back, is this interpretation accurate?

tv: I wasn’t a difficult album to make, we were freewheeling, making our own rules. But David was going through a difficult period professionally and personally. To his credit, he didn’t put on a brave face. His music said that he was “low.”

Is it true that Chateau d’Herouville was haunted by the ghosts of Chopin and George Sand (David refused to sleep in master bedroom ‘cos it was spooked? Eno woken by taps on the shoulder in the middle of the night?). Any good ghostly happenings you recall?

tv: I keep reviewing my feelings about the supernatural. There was certainly some strange energy in that chateau. On the first day David took one look at the master bedroom and said, “I’m not sleeping in there!” He took the room next door. The master bedroom had a very dark corner, right next to the window, ironically, that seem to just suck light into it. It was colder in that corner too. I took the bedroom because I wanted to test my meditation abilities. I never admitted this before. I had read that Buddhists in Tibet meditated all night in a graveyard to test their level of fear/no fear. Milarepa, the Tibetan saint, sat on his dead mother’s body all night and meditated. It felt like it was haunted as all fuck, but what could Frederic and George really do to me, scare me in French? I loved the look of the room so I decided to spend one night there. If something happened I planned to shout so loud I’d wake up the village.

….Eno claims he was awakened early every morning with someone shaking his shoulder. When he opened his eyes no one was there.

There are rumours that Robert Fripp was involved on ‘Low’, but uncredited. Was he?

tv: He wasn’t there, ever. Only Ricky Gardiner, David and Carlos Alomar played guitar on Low.

Rumour also has it that an alternative version exists with different lyrics – is this true, and if so, why?

tv: I remember David wrote a third verse to “Always Crashing In The Same Car” and sang it in the style of Bob Dylan. It was done half in jest, but we were a little freaked because Dylan had just been in that motorcycle accident and this seemed like bad taste, I guess. David asked me to erase it and I did. I can’t recall there being any alternative lyrics to any other songs.

There’s a story about Dennis Davis recounting a tale (during ‘Low’ sessions) of being thrown out of the army after seeing a UFO crash. What do you remember of this, if at all?

tv: Dennis was the life of the party. He could do a mime act on the closed-circuit-tv camera and have us in stitches. He claimed he took a short cut through a highly classified hanger and saw a crashed UFO from the catwalk he was on. He stared at it for ages until a guard told him to leave because he wasn’t classified to be there. He was warned not to ever mention what he saw. I don’t know if this is true, but it was highly entertaining. French tv sucks, Dennis is the best we had.

There’s a credit on ‘Low’ for Peter and Paul. Is this to do with Mary being there? And who were they really?

tv: Brian and Mary sang the “doo-doos” in the beginning of “Sound and Vision.” Mary and our kids were there for a couple of weeks.

Does it still annoy you that some people still think Eno produced the ‘Berlin’ albums?

tv: Yes. David’s set the record straight many times since, and of course my name is in the credits as co-producer with David. How rock journalists continue to make that mistake is beyond me. Come to think of it, I don’t recall Brian ever setting the record straight. I know that David and Brian spent some time together before going in the studio with me, but they were writing. Brian spent an average of three weeks on each the Triptych albums recording his bits. He wasn’t present for the vocals, lots of other overdubs and the mix.

I’ve always thought that there’s a prevailing mood of hope throughout ‘Low’ (certainly not a pessimistic album). Do you think that comes through?

tv: I find “Warzawa” very uplifting. Despite a few really bad days we had quite a lot of fun making Low, especially when all the radical ideas were making sense and things were starting to click. I remember after a couple of weeks of recording I made a rough mix of the entire album so far and handed a cassette of it to David. He left the control room waving the cassette over his head and grinned ecstatically saying, “We’ve got an album, we’ve got an album.” I have to qualify that statement by saying that at the beginning, the three of us agreed to record with no promise that Low would ever be released. David had asked me if I didn’t mind wasting a month of my life on this experiment if it didn’t go well. Hey, we were in a French chateau for the month of August and the weather was great!

Is it true that, when David asked what your Eventide Harmonizer did, you blurted “It messes with the fabric of time!”? How revolutionary do you think that sound was you created? And its influence in later years?

tv: I actually said, “It fucks with the fabric of time,” much to the delight of David and Brian, who were on a conference call with me at the time. I must’ve been quoted in a family magazine.

….It was a radical sound, especially on the drums. I had the second Harmonizer in Europe and I guessed it would be a matter of time before other producers figured out what I was doing. But when the album came out the Harmonizer still wasn’t widely available. I had loads of producers phoning me and asking what I had done, but I wouldn’t tell them. I asked, instead, how they thought I did it and I got some great answers that I found inspirational. One producer insisted I compressed the drum tracks three separate times and slowed the tape down every time, or something like that. I also used the Harmonizer to great effect on some vocals, but especially on side two.

….I’ve heard hundreds of “Low sounds” on other records since.

You’ve described recording ‘Low’ as pretty horrible. Do you remember much of the various incidents (food poisoning, French press infiltration, etc.)?

tv: In August most of Europe goes on holiday. This studio was no exception. The service was terrible. After three days I noticed that the sound got duller and duller and I asked my assistant, a lovely English chap, when was the last time the multitrack recorder was lined up? He said about a week before we arrived then the technician went on holiday. My assistant was brand new, hired just for us because he could speak English and French. He didn’t know how to maintain the machines. So every morning I’d go into the control room with him and we’d line up the machine together, with the manual open, hoping for the best.

….The food was appalling. For the first three days they served nothing but rabbit and no vegetables. I was starving. When I asked for a little salad or something, they plopped six heads of lettuce on the table with a bottle each of vinegar and oil, plus more rabbit.

….We would get ravenous at night so we’d eat this cheese that they left out uncovered since dinner. David and I got food poisoning as a result. Even the French doctor couldn’t be bothered to look at me because I got out of bed to request that he see me after David. He said, “He’s okay, he can walk!” David shared his medicine with me.

….A French woman was hired to be our assistant. She was supposed to provide us with anything we might need to make the recording go smoothly, but even she couldn’t be bothered to bring some bread, cheese and wine up to the studio when we called down for some at 1 a.m. (a normal working hour for a rock studio). I remember David getting the owner out of bed at that hour and saying in precise, measured out words, “We want some bread, some cheese and some wine in the studio ? now! What, you’re asleep? Excuse me, but I thought you were running a studio

What impressed you initially with Ricky Gardiner?

tv: He was totally left-field and completely savvy with special effects. I was in awe of him.

HEROES is widely seen as a more upbeat and positive album than Low. Is this accurate?

tv: Yeah. They were happier times and the Germans run a studio a hell of a lot better than the French – then anyway.

The album was largely written in the studio and completed in mostly first takes. Correct? Was there an intent behind this method?

tv: We always started these albums as making demos, that went right on until Scary Monsters. Then we’d realize that the “demos” needed just a little editing without re-recording. Sometimes I would take a great section and copy it and edit it into the song later on, cutting right across the 24-track tape. I wouldn’t say they were first takes, we worked hard and long on each track. We didn’t go into say 25 takes, but I’d say that most tracks were done in about 5 takes.

You’ve been quoted as saying you loved the Hansa Studio 2 and it was one of your “last great adventures in making albums”. Please explain? Was the implied danger of being by the guarded Wall a factor? Gave you creative energy?

tv: It’s acoustically a beautiful room. You can hear the ambience on Dennis’ drums and David’s vocals. Being so close to the wall made it a pretty exotic place to make a record. The equipment was vintage and well maintained. After work there were things to do, places to go and people to see. Plus, I had the good fortune to have a room full of very talented and creative musicians. It was a moment in time. I heard that U2 went to Hansa looking for what we created there and it didn’t pan out for them. I heard that they hated the place.

Is it true that Robert Fripp came and went in a day and played over tracks ‘blind’? Just how good was he?

tv: Two days – and I missed one of them because my missus (Mary Hopkin) had a television show that I had to conduct for. Fripp is AMAZING! He did his Frippatronics thing and plugged into Eno’s EMS briefcase synth. The combination was terrific. His playing on “Heroes” didn’t take long. He just played one pass and asked for three more tracks to embellish the first take. Before we knew it we had a sound no one had ever heard before. The guitars on that track are breathtaking. Besides being a great musician he is also a very funny man. He wondered if he was going to get laid in Berlin that night, but used the euphemism, “I hope I’ll wave the sword of union tonight.” He’d lay on his Somerset accent extra thick for that. We couldn’t stop laughing.

Conflicting stories: “Heroes” was inspired by (a) two lovers David observed standing by the Berlin Wall, (b) Tony Visconti and Antonia Maass kissing by the Wall, (c) Otto Mueller’s painting ” Lovers Between Garden Walls” (d) all of the above?

tv: Because I was married at the time David protected me all these years by not saying that he saw Antonia and me kiss by the wall. He asked to be left alone to write the lyrics and we took a walk by the wall. Antonia was a beautiful woman and a great singer. We both met her singing in a jazz band in a Berlin club.

LODGER is an album which really divides Bowie fans – I.e. either devout love or total indifference. With hindsight, does it deserve? both these extremes?

tv: I wished it was sonically better, the studios we used were poor choices, but the content of that album is wonderful. I play it a lot despite how bad it sounds to me.

Moving away from pure electronic sounds – was this a deliberate strategy to stay ahead of the synthesizer copycat bands who were busy aping Low and “Heroes”?

tv: I guess so. We didn’t do an ambient side on this one either.

What about the “Planned Accidents” strategy (for e.g., Adrian Belew being put in the studio and told to play whatever came into his head over unknown tracks)?

tv: A lot more chaos was intended. Brian was doing some strange experiments like writing his eight favorite chords on a black board and asking the rhythm section to “play something funky.” Then he would randomly point at a chord and the band had to follow. This didn’t go down too well, but we were trying all sorts of different things. “Yassisin” was a deliberate attempt to make a hybrid form of music – Reggae/Turkish. “Fantastic Voyage” and “Boys Keep Swinging” are the same song harmonically and structurally, as well as a third track that was never used. Adrian Belew was a champion because he’d do whatever strange thing that was requested of him.

Eno’s credited as adding ‘cricket menace’. Please explain?

tv: That’s the chattering sound on “African Nightflight,” a sound and rhythm pattern on David’s Roland beatbox, played very, very fast. On the track sheet it said, “Enraged crickets.”

Was the recording of ‘Boys Keep Swinging’ based on Oblique Strategy cards (‘Change instruments’ and / or ‘Use unqualified people’)?

tv: Probably. Fortunately Carlos could play good drums.

The final refrain in Red Money, – “project cancelled”. Is this significant? A curtain being drawn on the Eno triptych?

tv: I have no idea. Ask David.

MISCELLANEOUS Why do you think the Bowie / Eno / Visconti axis worked so well (no modesty, please!)? What was special?

tv: I think it’s because the three of us are used to working unfettered by commercial dictates. We didn’t give a rat’s arse about A&R people, critics, or anybody. It’s hard to get people in the studio to unwind and be radically creative. We were the opposite. We also, the three of us, have good chops. We didn’t struggle to get things done. Therefore, things got done! I think I was a good barometer for David and Brian to see if something was working or not. My cultural background is completely different from theirs (I’m a Brooklyn, New Yawk boy), but artistically and creatively I was up to par with them. Strange bedfellows, indeed!

The Berlin albums are now seen as foundation stones of postpunk/ambient/electronica/world music. Does this surprise you? Were you aware of their importance when you were making them?

tv: I think I realized that after Low was released and accepted as a milestone album. Heroes was just a better Low. Lodger was a creative reaction, I guess, to Low and Heroes. All three are quite amazing. I could sit down right now and listen to all three in a row and I know I’ll hear a few more things I’ve missed before, or remember some great moment in the studio when something happened that boggled the brain, like “Joe The Lion,” all the playing and singing on that one! Feeling the power of the ambient music slowly building up – the tape was the score paper itself!

….Scary Monsters is never mentioned as being part of the three albums, but I think it is the crowning glory of what we had learned from making the Triptych. Even though Brian wasn’t with us on that one you can feel his influence.

Which is your favourite album of the three?

tv: It depends on how I feel. Probably Heroes.

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One response to “Uncut Interviews David Bowie & Tony Visconti On Berlin

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